Q. When and where were you born and where did you receive your primary and higher education?
Response. I was born in Pattoki, District Lahore, Pakistan; received primary education from the State and church schools in Karachi and Lahore; received Bachelor of Science (B.Sc.) degree form Kinnaird College for Women, Lahore and Master of Arts (MA) from the Punjab University, Lahore. In 1977, I received Bachelor of Divinity (BD) a Theology degree, from Trinity Theological College, Singapore and PhD in Theology and Personality from Claremont School of Theology, California, USA in 2005.
Since 1979, I have been involved studying and attaining practical experience in the field of social services working with developmentally disabled, abused and neglected children. This led me to receiving a diploma in Special Education from Japan (1979-80), where I worked with severely mentally challenged children. On my return from Japan in April 1980, I founded two institutions in the city of Karachi: Dar-ul-Khushnud, Diocese of Karachi, and Dar-ul-Musarrat, a community-based program in Baldia for the mentally challenged children. When my husband moved to Lahore as the diocesan bishop of Raiwind diocese in 1987, I started working with rural and slum women of our diocese, which led me to establish Women Development and Service Program (1989) in the diocese, which primarily works with illiterate and unskilled rural and slum (basti) women. My passion to continue working with mentally challenged children led me to open Dar-ul-Mussarat Lahore which is run under the patronage of Raiwind Diocese. My work with women and children since 1979 has been a spiritual experience for me. It has deeply nurtured my faith in loving and compassionate God who wants us to be His partners in nurturing, sustaining and protecting all life given by Him. All these experiences have greatly contributed to my education and compassionate service in and outside Pakistan. Serving World Federation of Methodist and Uniting Church Women, a global women’s organization working in about seventy countries, as its World President brought me in touch with millions of women throughout the world. All this was possible through sheer grace of God.
Q. You are a bishop’s daughter, and bishop’s wife. What made you think to be a religious leader yourself (first woman clergy). Were you planning to contest an election to be a priest or bishop of another diocese?
Response. I have been nurtured and brought up by my parents (Bishop Safdar Qadir Bakhsh & Florence Qadir Bakhsh) who were ministers in the church of Pakistan. My grand father (Rev. Qadir Bakhsh) was a pastor (padri) in Sahiwal Associate Reformed Church, and my great grand father, Dr. Labhu Mall was one of the early converts and a great evangelist/ scholar of the Bible. Since my childhood, I have been actively involved in the life of the church. I took active part in Sunday school, youth groups and the church choir. Participation in youth and family camps further informed me about our Christian faith. I started teaching Sunday school children when I was a young college student. I also served on Sunday School Committee of the National Council of Churches in Pakistan. This gave me a wider exposure to church life. Attending Christian conventions and taking part in various church activities was my passion. My attachment with church stirred my enthusiasm to pursue systematic religious education from an accredited college/university. At that time (70’s) women were not accepted in seminaries or theological colleges in Pakistan. In 1974, I was awarded a Crusade scholarship by the Women’s Division of the United Methodist Church, USA to study theology at Trinity Theological College, Singapore. During this time, I ministered in a Punjabi church along with a senior Indian pastor. I loved worshipping with these people. This kept me also connected with my people while living in a foreign land.
In 1976, another Pakistani student, Samuel Azariah, joined the same college I was attending in Singapore. After graduating from this college in 1977, I returned to Pakistan. In 1978, I got married to Samuel Azariah and went back with him to Singapore for the final year of his studies. We returned to Pakistan in 1979. My husband became an ordained minister in Karachi diocese, and I went to Japan to receive training and experience in the field of special education. On my return from Japan in 1980, I opened a center for the mentally retarded children, “Dar-ul-Khushnud”, meaning a home of happiness.
As a padri’s wife, a padri’s daughter and the first Pakistani theologically trained woman, I played an active role in the church particularly amongst church women. My role as a leader in the women’s fellowship, leading bible studies and expounding on the role of women in the church led me to advocate on behalf of women in Pakistan. My work with women and handicapped children helped me understand the plight of the powerless and poor. I became aware of the fact that the poor and powerless can easily be oppressed by those in authority. My understanding of the bible particularly Jesus’ ministry with the marginalized segments of society empowered me to empower women particularly church women to define their status and role in the church and society.
While talking about the ministry of women in the church, we faced opposition from those who were opposed to women receiving theological education and serving in the church as ordained ministers. A few likeminded women got together as “Muharkeen” (movers) to study the scriptures from women’s perspective. This was an empowering experience and helped us understand our role in church and society. Women’s Synodical of the Church of Pakistan played a leading role in this struggle. My book “The Synodical of Women’s Fellowship, Church of Pakistan: Its Role and Vision of Empowering Women Through Theological Education in Pakistan, which was launched by the Women’s Synodical, Church of Pakistan in September 2007 traces 25 years of women’s ministry in the church of Pakistan. Theological education and ordination of women is a subject that has been discussed by the church women since 80’s. During my tenure as the Coordinator of Women’s Synodical, (1990-1993), a theological consultation for women was held in 1992 in Lahore. In this consultation, five ordained women theologians from Sri Lanka, India, and Indonesia were invited as resource persons. It was empowering to see an ordained female minister from Indonesia co-celebrating the Holy Communion together with the Moderator Bishop Zaheer Mirza of the Church of Pakistan.
In Raiwind diocese, educational seminars, consultations and round table conferences have been held to deliberate on the need of women’s participation in the total life of the church from scriptural, cultural and global church’s point of view. It was a long thoughtful and dynamic movement that led the diocese of Raiwind to take a positive step in ordaining two of its women as deacons in the church. A few years later, Bishop Sammy Azariah not only ordained another young woman in the diocese of Raiwind, he also appointed a woman priest (British) in the Diocese of Raiwind.
Ordination of women is to affirm that women are called and ordained by God to play a significant role at all levels of ministry in the church. There are a few church leaders both women and men who believe that women have been playing significant roles in the life of church and their nation in accordance with God’s will. I believe in the biblical concept of “priesthood of all believers.” God has given an open invitation to all believers, women and
men to come forward to participate in Christ’s mission of peace, justice and reconciliation. To strengthen God’s work and God’s rule in Pakistan, all members of the society, women or men, rich or poor irrespective of color, creed or race should be equally involved.
I did not go to a theological college with an intention to become a padri (ordained clergy to serve a parish). I didn’t even know that I will meet my life partner in Singapore. All I knew was to submit my will to God’s will and allow my self to be led by God’s spirit. I want to make it very clear that I did not accept an ordination with an intention to become a padri, or to become a bishop. Ordination signifies to the fact that I am set apart (consecrated) by God to serve in whatever capacity God wants me to serve. If it is God’s will that I should serve Him as an active full-time clergy, I will do it whole heartedly without any hesitation.
In September 2001, I moved to the United States for two reasons. Firstly, to be with my three very young daughters, who were living with their paternal uncle and grandmother in the United States of America since early 90’s, to meet their emotional and financial needs so that my husband is better able to perform his duties as a bishop of a newly formed diocese in Pakistan. This meant finding a full-time job in the United States. In 2001, right after 9/11, we rented a small two-bedroom apartment and living humbly as a family. Another reason of leaving Pakistan was to write my PhD dissertation on “Pakistani Education and Religious Intolerance: A critique and constructive alternative rooted in a libratory model and a vision for social harmony in Pakistan. I had already conducted my research in Pakistan in late 1999 and needed time to meet my advisor and to follow through various steps to successfully complete my dissertation. Leaving Pakistan was not easy. In the face of this transition, leaned upon God. I had already made a promise: Wherever God wants me to go, I will go. Wherever my savior Jesus Christ wants me to serve, I will serve. This was my commitment to God. When I left Pakistan, I did not know what the future held for me, but I knew the One who holds the future for me and my household.
Q. Is it scriptural for Pakistani Christian religious leaders to directly participate in national politics?
Response: Christians must become politically involved because they have a responsibility to history. If their faith does not challenge them to struggle for their oppressed sisters and brothers, their faith cannot identify with them. In my opinion the church must act as an ethical guide, in pointing out a society’s weakness and struggling to create a more liberated and just world willed by God. It is for this reason that I believe that all citizens including Christians should play an active role in national politics. Yes, it is scriptural. Our Lord Jesus Christ was a great reformer and an activist. He challenged the oppressive powers and authorities and stood in solidarity with the oppressed for restoration of human dignity and justice. Politics is an art of guiding and influencing governmental rules and procedures. It is people’s right to learn this art in the right manner. If it is not taught the right way, people learn it the wrong way and thus hurt themselves and others.
For all practical purposes, if a Christian leader has a specific role to be a doctor, he or she should set aside his or her specific responsibilities to devote his/her time and energy to engage in active politics which is a full-time occupation. If a practicing doctor becomes an elected parliamentarian, he will not be able to do justice to his profession as a doctor, and may mess up on both fronts. Similarly, if a padri wants to contest an election to become an effective and active assemblyman/woman, it is advised that he/she must surrender his/her responsibilities as a padri, and then by all means play a direct and an active role in the national politics as an elected leader. In my opinion a parliamentarian’s job is very important and anybody who wants to take up this position must do it wholeheartedly. The scriptures say, “Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for God, not for men (human beings)”
All pastors and church leaders should take an active role in advocating, educating and raising people’s awareness and empowering them to be agents of political change. They should discuss political issues of their country at the perish level. They should invite experts in this field from within and outside the church circles to have useful discussions over the political life of the nation. They must raise people’s consciousness and sensitize them to relate with issues that affect their lives, i.e. issues of religious intolerance, injustices, caring for the sick and suffering etc.
There is so much conflict and clash due to church politics. How can this situation be eliminated?
Response: Unfortunately, politics has been abused and misunderstood both within and outside the church circles. People engage in politics for their personal gain and benefits. In fact, all politics, including church politics should be aimed at the well being of all God’s people. The Church must actively participate in peace and justice issues; this will help people to focus more on playing positive roles rather than negative roles. Political science must be taught at all levels including the seminaries, and theological colleges as a compulsory subject so that both clergy and lay people learn the true meaning of politics.
When a pastor is caught doing financial corruption, he /she is transferred from one church to the other. Is there any severe punishment for such a person in the church so that in future others are not encouraged to do so?
Response: Transfer will not help alleviate the problem; neither punitive action would remedy the issue. Proper training/education and accountability will help resolve such issues. Corruption creeps into any institution when there is no accountability and proper supervision. In every institution including the church, there should be checks and balances, and proper structures in place to monitor finances and other assets entrusted to the leaders. Stewardship is another subject which must be taught at various levels in the church, including seminaries. By doing so, we will communicate a strong vision for the church, which fosters a sense of ownership and provides a reason to give to the church. When a pastor is caught doing financial corruption, he/she should be strictly disciplined and required to undergo proper training before resuming his/her responsibility as a minister in the church
Q. Due to misuse of the blasphemy law, several Christians are facing lots of problems. How can this law be repealed?
esponse: In my view, misuse of any law hurts people. In many incidents, members of the majority community have also suffered problems and difficulties due to improper use of this law. All faith communities must respect others’ religious beliefs, and refrain from making hurtful remarks against others. Respect for oneself and others is nurtured from childhood. It comes from within and cannot be regulated through any law or stipulation. One supreme law that must govern our thought and action is “Love for God and Love for our neighbor.” Any law that negates this principle must be repealed. Pakistani education particularly at the primary and high school level must focus on promoting religious tolerance. Learning about other faiths and finding common grounds that draw people together as a nation and community is what Civic and religious education need to emphasize. All discriminatory and oppressive laws that legalize disharmony in Pakistan must be denounced. To do this more effectively, the church must join hands in solidarity with the governmental and non-governmental organizations which are struggling and raising their voice against these laws to affect a positive change.
Q. Governments make big claims that minorities have equal rights, but the real situation is quite contrary to that. What would you like to say about this matter?
Response: In early 2001, I conducted a Participatory Research on “Pakistani Education and Religious Intolerance.” This research was part of my doctoral dissertation. A copy of my findings was handed out to Col. Tressler, who was then the federal minister of minority affairs. The research was based on my interaction with primary school children, teachers, parents, community leaders and a few church leaders and educators. This research revealed that our primary school curriculum, prescribed by the Punjab Textbook Board is saturated with hatred, bigotry and intolerance towards non-Muslims. An interactive theatre staged in Raiwind and Lahore brought us into contact with a few authentic voices which revealed that although government makes claims or is trying to promote religious tolerance, no significant practical measures have been taken to ensure that non-Muslim Pakistanis are equal citizens. There were several texts in the curriculum that suggest that Pakistan is a homeland of Muslims; non-Muslims have no concept of true worship and that they have no sense of morality and decency. The contribution of non-Muslim Pakistanis was omitted from Pakistan’s history. There was no mention of the significant role that has been played by the national church in nations’ total development. Curriculum Textbook Board had no representation of non-Muslims. Muslim students are privileged to study religion and appear for the Board examination, whereas non-Muslim students are denied this right.
We would like the government to make intentional efforts to exhibit that it is indeed trying to demonstrate that non-Muslims are equal citizens and in practice benefit from equal rights. This no doubt is a difficult and a challenging task, but the church can play a significant role in raising people’s awareness regarding this subject. People have the power to affect any change. If the church stands in solidarity with them, change is bound to happen.
Q. What would you say regarding the government’s stance on not giving representation to minorities in the affairs of the nation?
Response: Giving representation to its entire citizenry in the affairs of the nation at all levels is a sure test that the government treats its people equally and is committed to their total well being. Marginalized communities (minorities) should never give up asking for their rights until the government takes positive steps in this regard. It is important, however, that we must learn the art of asking and refrain from taking part in any activity that can jeopardize national unity. By not giving representation to minorities in the affairs of the nation is a loss to the government/ State.
Q For minorities, what is the appropriate form of election: separate or joint?
Response: Joint elections though may be a challenge for the non-Muslims, it signifies that minorities are very much part of the national makeup. I am in favor of inclusive form of elections and an inclusive form of government. If for some reasons non-Muslims or women (an important segment of any society) are unable to enter the affairs of the government, then measures should be taken by the elected members or the party leaders to nominate or elect members of these communities. No party or government is complete without representation of minority communities. A minority is always the conscience of a nation. It plays a prophetic role which must be valued and respected to ensure total health and wellbeing of a nation.
Q. How can religious prejudice and sectarianism be eliminated from Islamic Republic of Pakistan?
Response: A vision unites people towards a common goal. The creation of Pakistan was a result of a vision that stemmed from people’s core belief to build a home for a religious minority to live with dignity, in peace and harmony as per the sovereign will of God. This vision energized people to move forward towards achieving their goal. Pakistan, having lost its original vision today, is caught up in a whirlpool of religious intolerance, which has weakened the social fabric that was woven by its founders. This blaze of religious intolerance and prejudice can only be put out by liberatory education that leads people into a social order where peace, justice, equality, liberation, tolerance and harmony rule people’s minds, hearts, and dealings in everyday life. By liberatory education, I mean education that discourages rote memory and internalizing of certain fact/values and practices that are not based on truth or any facts. Liberatory education encourages students to engage in critical reflection and action; raise questions and challenge values, laws, practices that promote bigotry and narrow-mindedness amongst people. All that pollutes our national environment and is opposed to God’s will must be detested and eliminated from Pakistan. Muslims and non-Muslims can work together to promote religious tolerance and social harmony as follows:
- Introduce basic teachings of all religions emphasizing moral values in primary and
high school level
- Promoting dialogues of religious experience, celebrating and participating in each other’s religious experience
- Condemning riots and acts of religious intolerance. If possible joint press releases by religious leaders could be issued
- Encouraging and influencing media to introduce programs through television and radio, recognizing and appreciating the positive role and contributions of minority community in nation building
- Re-writing Pakistan’s history from an inclusive perspective, highlighting contributions of non-Muslims in nation building
Q. Radio and television continues to broadcast and telecast programs for three days during Islamic religious festivals, on the contrary, Christians are hardly given half an hour. What do you have to say about this?
Response: Half an hour program, if planned wisely and astutely, will bring forth more fruit. Disjointed and disorganized programs have very little impact on the audience/spectators. Media plays a great role in bringing about a change and transformation in a society. Pakistani Christian youth must be encouraged to receive media training. There should be audio and video studios run by the church/ committed Christian to produce audio-video programs rather than wait for their turn for annual Easter/Christmas programs.
Religious teachings that promote peace, justice, equality and human rights need to be promoted by members of all faith communities. Important religious festivals must be celebrated by all faith communities, and media (print, radio, television) should give proper coverage to programs that are of ecumenical nature. It is recommended that radio/television should devote at least one day to the celebration of non-Muslim’s religious festivals. On that day, open-minded and tolerant scholars of other faiths should also be invited to reflect upon their views and experiences living with people of other faiths. Emphasis should be given to promoting dialogue and building relationships with people of other faiths from historical and faith point of views.
Q. What do you say about any national political party that refrains from nominating a c candidate from a minority community to contest an election?
Response: Before being nominated by any political party, it is important to know and study its manifesto. A national political party which is committed to national unity, peace and harmony will not exclude any person from its membership and assuming a position of leadership. I think those national political parties that are exclusive in nature are not committed to nation building. As true Pakistanis, it is our responsibilities to raise their consciousness regarding this matter. And as a word of caution, minority leaders before aspiring to contest an election through any party, must study the party’s policies and program. Only then they will be able to work effectively.
Q. Why is it that Christians have not been able to form any national political party?
Response: Selfish motives on behalf of a few Pakistani Christian political leaders, who are busy
promoting themselves rather than the issues of their community is the main reason. The church leaders both clergy and lay must join hand on a national level to discover a new way of being a church in this fast-changing age. Church is a body of Christ, and its role is to encourage a more planned and pragmatic strategy for effective social change. To be this church in Pakistan, the church/Christians must do what Christ mandates in His memory. Jesus relied on the power of love. Open communication with others, solidarity with the poor and the oppressed, and tolerance and forgiveness are ideals expressed and embodied by Jesus. If the church will come forward with a clear and dynamic manifesto based on Christ’s teachings, only then a national political party can be formed. Perhaps the National Council of Churches, Christian Study Center and other committed ecumenical bodies in Pakistan can play a vital role to gather people under one banner.
Q: Your message for the oppressed segments of society.
Response: My message to all oppressed segments of society is as follows:
i. Take pride in your faith: Faith in God who is just and compassionate.
ii. Exhibit unity: Ignore petty differences in the pursuit of higher goals.
iii. Hope for a better future: Keep working for a prosperous Pakistan without loosing hope.
Don’t be misguided by those who tell you that you are unable to bring about any change. Your power lies within you. Join hands with others to denounce all practices, attitudes, policies, and powers that oppress and deny you the right to live a fuller life.
Message For My Christian Community:
Do not be afraid of your status as a minority as God is with you. Act out your Christian faith. Get involved in national politics. It is a sacred act. To do nothing is to uphold the status quo, in itself a highly political act.
Challenge the church and your leaders to evaluate state education and any policy/law that limits your life to live a fully human life. Join in the struggle to affect positive change. It is in the process of liberating others that you will experience your own liberation.
Actively participate in God’s mission of peace and justice. When you get together to change your oppressive context, God comes down to participate in your struggle to liberate you. To bring about change nurture your children in Christian faith; give them quality education; work hard to building relationship with people of other faith; keep making and remaking your world to be more fully human. Remember that our prophetic mission is not only to announce the liberating message of Jesus, but also to denounce what is incompatible with it. Stay connected with God through prayer and discipleship. Obedience to God’s will is the key to victorious life. Love God and Love your neighbor. This is Jesus’ supreme commandment.
God bless us all.